shrek
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Post by shrek on Mar 22, 2017 10:14:45 GMT -8
This is a thread that will focus on the addition of a telephoto lens to the x-sight 5x20.
I have purchased a cheap ebay special 2.2x telephoto lens to see if it feasible to increase the optical zoom. I am not a photography guy so I have been doing some research and it seems that there is no free lunch when it comes to optics. Several of the things I have learned about telephoto lens are that image quality can be decreased, along with decreased light transmission. It seems that the larger the magnification the more these effects can be seen, obviously the quality of the lens itself plays a huge role as well. The common mag levels I have seen available are 1.4x, 2x, and 2.2x. This is an experiment to see what the trade offs will be and to see if this is a viable option to increase the optical zoom of our scopes. Below is a table with the effective optical zoom with these mag levels and the digital zoom level that is needed to achieve the standard 20x.
Telephoto Mag | Effective Optical Zoom | Max Zoom | Zoom Setting to Equal 20x | 1.4x | 7x | 28x | 14x | 2x | 10x | 40x | 10x | 2.2x | 11x | 44x | 9x |
I will hopefully have the lens in my hand in a few days to start testing. The lens I purchased should be pretty much the worst case scenario so if it works the results should only get better with better quality. I will be posting results as I get them. The testing will be done in 3 stages and if it fails at any point I will either purchase a lower mag lens or look for another option.
1st Stage: Verify the image is not inverted // Find distance the lens needs to be mounted to focus // Take control photos of objects at known distance in stock configuration (5x and 20x)
2nd Stage: Take photos of the same images with the lens attached (11x, 20x-equivilent, 44x)
3rd Stage: Verify that the lens does not effect point of aim
This should be a pretty fun project and if your interested just stay tuned. I will post an update to this thread once the lens arrives. If anyone see an issue with the way I am going to do the tests I am all ears!
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Post by waltlongmire on Mar 22, 2017 10:42:50 GMT -8
Out of curiosity - is this a theoretical application to my multiplier idea from the other thread but using telephoto lens(es) instead of a static multiplier?
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shrek
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Post by shrek on Mar 22, 2017 10:54:42 GMT -8
Yes, sort of I think. In the other thread we were talking about ways to get more optical zoom. You tested with a multiplier and described the results you got. There was some discussion of tele-converters / tele-photo lens. This would be a static multiplier as well, but connected to the scope. I basically started this thread to post results of this project and get some ideas on testing. This thread is a direct result of the other thread. Since you tested an add on multiplier do you mind posting your results as well? If you can take photos that would be great.
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Post by waltlongmire on Mar 22, 2017 11:01:19 GMT -8
Actually I just had the idea - that was someone else that tested it I wish the M1A had enough rail real estate to give the notion a try though. I look forward to hearing your results of your method.
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bunnyblaster
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Competitive target shooting & hunting for about 25 years, mostly vermin hunting.
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Post by bunnyblaster on Mar 22, 2017 11:07:21 GMT -8
Out of curiosity - is this a theoretical application to my multiplier idea from the other thread but using telephoto lens(es) instead of a static multiplier? I'd say it's a bit of A & B, as noted these things are ok for daytime use. They may cause a bit of chromatic aberration, discoloration etc but nothing too serious for a sight that's already terrible at 20X (unless it inverts the image!) I have no idea what'll happen with the SSS as it bases it's calculations of size at a certain magnification to give a distance or even the standard distance measuring tool. It'll really mess with light transmission at night though, the more elements the worse NV gets. But hey, that's tooling around with things for fun. It's the fun bit that keeps people modding You never know, this could be the next must have object (or not)
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Post by eradicator on Mar 23, 2017 3:58:40 GMT -8
Good luck Shrek! I take the worst pictures of anyone but I have learned that when using my x22 camera....it ABSOLUTELY MUST by mounted to a tripod when using the optical zoom. I think that your results will be more consistent if you can do something similar when doing your experiments.....
erad
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shrek
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Post by shrek on Mar 23, 2017 4:58:40 GMT -8
I am planning on using a bench rest. If I get some issues because of pressing the button I will try using the app.
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shrek
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Post by shrek on Mar 27, 2017 16:20:02 GMT -8
I just wanted to give everyone a quick update. I am still waiting on the telephoto lens to arrive so until then the project is on hold. Turns out my US seller on ebay is a drop shipper from overseas so I am sure the lens is just enjoying the the slow boat from China.
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Post by eradicator on Mar 28, 2017 2:37:29 GMT -8
I live on the East Coast and have received stuff from China as fast as nine days....so you might get lucky!
erad
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shrek
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Post by shrek on Mar 30, 2017 6:22:59 GMT -8
So I have some mixed news to report.
1. The lens has arrived, but it is a 72mm vs a 62mm lens. This set up will leave ~4.5mm of clearance from the lens to the rail.
2. The image is not inverted, image quality is slightly muted as expected.
3. I am working on getting a good focal distance between the telephoto lens and the scope.
4. I did some rough testing and can read a "do not enter" 18" x 24" sign clearly at 500m with scope set at 9.1x.
I have also been thinking about SSS and how the telephoto lens will effect it. I am thinking the we may have to do a distance calculation to make sure the POA is in the proper relation to image. I will do some playing with that during the 3rd stage of testing. I am hoping it is as simple as (DISTANCE / 2.2 = CORRECTED DISTANCE). The 2.2 is the additional magnification that will be in place.
I am still early in the first stage of testing, but it appears to be a promising project. I will update as I work through the process.
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Post by eradicator on Mar 30, 2017 10:24:49 GMT -8
This project will likely take some kicking around, resetting it up, changing a few things, doing it again.....until it begins to produce the results that you want....
Sounds like you're off to a good start though....
erad
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shrek
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Post by shrek on Mar 30, 2017 11:33:08 GMT -8
I will take some pictures of the test rig I am using. It is a plastic cup that I have cut down to fit both the scope and lens. I am using silicon bands to hold the rig to both the scope and lens (no adhesive). I covered the rest of the cup with electrical tape to prevent extra light coming in. The area on the top that has the tape removed is so that I can measure the distance between the scope and lens. I will post them after I get home.
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shrek
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Post by shrek on Mar 31, 2017 15:21:44 GMT -8
As promised here are some pictures of the test rig I used to determine the proper focal length for the setup. I tested from 25mm to 1mm. The results were mixed with the best results found between 18mm and 23mm. I decided to go with a 20mm adapter/spacer as it gave the most versatility in focusing for various ranges. The initial testing of focal length showed that the longer focal lengths 25mm - 23mm required the focus to be almost maxed out to the + to clearly see objects at 500m. The longer focal lengths also limited the ability to focus below 200m. The shorter focal lengths between 18mm - 14mm performed well between 100-200m, but maxed out the focus quickly outside of those ranges. Below 14mm focal length was basically a wash. In the range of 18mm - 23mm the usable range was pretty linear with about a 500m spread that the x-sight could focus clearly on. The longer focal lengths pushed the spread out, while the shorter ones pulled it in. 20mm seemed to be the best I could get with this set up. Attachments:
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shrek
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Post by shrek on Apr 1, 2017 13:43:02 GMT -8
I was hoping to mark out several target areas and take control photos today, but the weather did not cooperate. I am looking to use several distances for testing both image quality and for accuracy during the firing stage. Hopefully it stays dry for a go next week.
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Post by tedbylar on Apr 5, 2017 5:31:33 GMT -8
In the same vein, hopefully. Does anyone know why my 3-14 zooms but does not show the magnification? Only have a red magnifying glass icon on the scope, and a magnifying glass with "none" next to it on the OB app. Scope will zoom from both the app and scope, but still no mag indicator. I did a restore factory options but no help. Any ideas? Thanks
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shrek
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Post by shrek on Apr 5, 2017 16:36:40 GMT -8
I haven't heard of anyone having that problem. You may try reloading the current firmware and seeing if that corrects the issue. If not I suggest starting a new thread to get more traffic about your issue. You may also want to contact ATN and see what they think.
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Post by txhunterkl on Apr 5, 2017 19:30:23 GMT -8
Tedbylar
Make sure you have which scope you own inputted correctly in the settings. Either 3-14 or 5-20.
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shrek
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Post by shrek on Apr 12, 2017 18:51:51 GMT -8
Just wanted to give a quick update on the project. Hopefully I will have good weather and be able to start taking photos to evaluate the results of the project. We have been dealing with quite a bit of rain here in central Texas so it is difficult to get around on the ranch without tearing up the fields. We got 5-6" the other day so if things go well (no rain), I will be able to start this weekend between Easter activities. I will be posting some pictures of the various setup options that I am going to be testing in the nest day or so.
Here are a couple of the ideas that I am going to play with for the photos.
Scope Scope/Sunshade Scope/Stock Iris/Sunshade Scope/Adapter/Telephoto Lens Scope/Stock Iris/Adapter/Telephoto Lens Scope/Stock Iris/Sunshade/Adapter/Telephoto Lens
I am curious to see the differences in the various setups. From my initial testing I am thinking that Scope/Adapter/Telephoto Lens set up will provide the best results, but the photos will give us all real results. Lets hope on good weather so the testing can begin.
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shrek
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Post by shrek on Apr 15, 2017 20:38:29 GMT -8
I did some initial testing today. The focus is difficult to get just right and range seems to play a large part in which setup gives the best results. I did not have a lot of time today, but here is what I got. The feeder in the photo is 102 yards away from the stand. The stand is approximately 10 feet high and the angle is -2 according to the x-sight. Sunshade/Iris The first photo is at 5x the second is at 20x. Adapter/Tele The first photo is at 5x the second at 9.1x and the third is at 20x. Iris/Adapter/Tele The first photo is at 5x the second at 9.1x and the third is at 20x.
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shrek
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Post by shrek on Apr 15, 2017 20:42:26 GMT -8
Sunshade/Iris/Adapter/Tele The first photo is at 5x the second is at 9.1x and the third is at 20x. Like I said it is difficult to get the focus just right and I did not have a lot of time today to play with it so I did the best I could. I will do more testing when the ranch dries up some more.
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bunnyblaster
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Competitive target shooting & hunting for about 25 years, mostly vermin hunting.
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Post by bunnyblaster on Apr 16, 2017 0:42:48 GMT -8
Sunshade/Iris/Adapter/Tele View AttachmentView AttachmentView AttachmentThe first photo is at 5x the second is at 9.1x and the third is at 20x. Like I said it is difficult to get the focus just right and I did not have a lot of time today to play with it so I did the best I could. I will do more testing when the ranch dries up some more. Hi Shrek, I'm suprised at the improvement in colour clarity and general sharpness between the the starting 5X image and the final 5X image with the convert. The 20X with the convertor is really sharp. Mine is a blurred mess at 20X @ 100 yards with no convertor so that has got me thinking, why is your standard 20X image (with sunshade & disc with hole )so much better than mine! Good work, all seems promising. I'd be happy enough loosing functionality and just leave my 223 shooting 1" high at 100 to get better images during the day. Cheers, BunnyBlaster
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shrek
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Post by shrek on Apr 16, 2017 6:55:27 GMT -8
I think the color difference may have been partially due to changing light conditions it was pretty cloudy out.
One thing I have noticed is the photos are better quality than what you see in the scope. With that being said I have also noted that the light/target image plays a major role in image quality.
When I do the actual testing I am going to use a couple different targets and do it on a good sunny day.
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shrek
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Post by shrek on Apr 23, 2017 12:00:59 GMT -8
Just a quick update for those following this project. We have been getting a ton of rain here locally so the ranch is pretty soft. With all the rain and soft ground I have not been able to get into the fields to test the set ups. This is just a "rain delay" so to speak. Once we get some dry weather for a bit testing will start again and hopefully we can get some good results.
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texasken
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Post by texasken on Apr 27, 2017 6:16:31 GMT -8
I bumped my 5x20 up to 5x50 just to check it out. While it's very pixelated, I was still able to see the target and make shots. I couldn't use the 100yd line because I had tractors parked in the way but at 50yds, an 8" paper plate was larger than the viewing area. Made the bulls eye look HUGE.
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bunnyblaster
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Competitive target shooting & hunting for about 25 years, mostly vermin hunting.
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Post by bunnyblaster on Apr 27, 2017 9:32:35 GMT -8
I bumped my 5x20 up to 5x50 just to check it out. While it's very pixelated, I was still able to see the target and make shots. I couldn't use the 100yd line because I had tractors parked in the way but at 50yds, an 8" paper plate was larger than the viewing area. Made the bulls eye look HUGE.
View Attachment Hi texasken, Were you using an add-on lens or just the extended zoom? Cheers, BunnyBlaster
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